Question:
NARU is arguably worse than a negative FB. But in this case, the other party is an NPB. I don’t think eBay would NARU a seller …
I’m not talking about NARU’ing a seller, but NARU’ing a buyer. A seller has a lot more leverage to cause a buyer to get NARU’d than the reverse. The buyer can file an NSS, but they won’t likely prevail, because they aren’t compliant with reasonable auction terms. Has the seller done an Advanced Search by Bidder to look for other auction activity on this buyer? If not, they need to do it now. Look particularly for closed auctions won by this buyer, where there’s no FB, or there is FB indicating buyer compliance issues. Also note any auctions still open. Take seller UserIDs and auction numbers. Take NO action on the other seller IDs until further advised here, particularly on the open auctions. There may already be 2 NPBs in this buyer’s rap sheet, or there may be cases where NPBs need to be filed (or will need to be filed), and haven’t yet. ______ It’s important to not get distracted by creative efforts to avoid a neg (that may in any case be unavoidable). If it’s possible to walk away from the deal, that may be the most effective to do, and require the least effort. It’s important to not take actions that threaten the seller’s own status, or the seller’s standing in any ensuing FB dispute resolution, It’s important to use the leverage available to the seller, not all of which is obvious, and some of which eBay will never tell you about (but a.m.o.e. will). — http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
Response:
Sorry to top post but I didn’t know where to snip the babble. If I received your letter I would report YOU for feedback extortion and for threatening to keep payment and not shipping. Did you even bother to read what you wrote? Kimberly
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At this point, she’s considering accepting the check just to get rid of the item and the buyer, but she doesn’t feel leaving a positive feedback would be right. If she were to complete the sale, what kind of feedback would be justified? Believe me, in this of all types of transactions she should never leave feedback until she sees what this clown leaves. Also, don’t send the item until the check clears. As a seller, at this point I’d be very tempted to deposit the check and wait until it has cleared. Then…. Tell the buyer that you will not be sending the item until A) the check has cleared (don’t tell the buyer that it has cleared yet), and B) the buyer has left nicely worded positive feedback. Explain that since the buyer has completely ignored several key terms of the auction (contact within x days, payment within y days, payment by personal check) and didn’t make payment until the seller filed a NPB and said to never contact the seller again, that the seller has zero confidence that the buyer will behave properly in the future. So the seller requires assurance that this transaction will not end up going from bad (problems in getting paid) to worse (negative feedback). I’d consider sending email that says it this way: Dear Problem Buyer, This transaction has not gone well for me. Most of my buyers use my checkout feature as requested, contact me promptly, pay promptly, receive their item and are happy with their purchase. You have been a nightmare. Your emails to me have been rude and condescending, your actions have been uncooperative. Based on your replies to my emails, it looks like you are either not reading my emails at all, or completely ignoring them. You have now sent me a payment form (a personal check) that is not acceptable per my auction terms, and are now threatening that if I do not want to "got thru with this transaction, you will leave appropriate feedback". That is feedback extortion, and is a violation of eBay policy. I have reported this to eBay. I deposited your check and am waiting for it to clear. After it has cleared, I will contact you to tell you I am ready to ship your item. I will ship it as soon as you have left nicely worded positive feedback. Due to the tremendous number of problems I have had with you so far, I simply can not risk shipping the item until that has happened. Any further emails from you on this topic will be deleted unread. The only communications I ever want to hear from you in the future will be in the form of you leaving a nicely worded positive feedback. I’m very busy, but I’ll find time to check my feedback every now and then and once I see your nicely worded positive feedback, then your item will be shipped. If you are not willing to do this, you can’t have the item and I’ll be keeping your payment as compensation for the extreme hassle it has been dealing with you. Next time, be considerate and polite, and follow the seller’s auction terms in order to avoid the problems you created in this transaction. Sincerely, Fed Up Seller The buyer will be in a bit of a spot. If he doesn’t leave positive feedback, he won’t get his item! It’s too late to do a chargeback on the check, so he can’t just back out of the transaction without a loss. The seller has to be prepared for the buyer to get really mad at this point and decide to leave a neg instead of getting the item. (The price of the item will be a big part of this, if it’s a low price, the neg looks cheap, if it’s a high price then it’s likely the buyer is going to leave that positive in order to get his item.) The seller also has to be prepared for the seller to file a complaint with eBay, but since the buyer has been a royal PITA and hasn’t followed the auction terms, plus is now engaging in feedback extortion, if there is a complaint eBay should be able to easily figure out who the real problem is here. Oh, and the seller has already added this idiot to her Blocked Bidder List, right??? Finally, as to leaving feedback for this buyer, I wouldn’t leave anything until 89 days after the auction ends. I’d assume that this buyer is "too busy" to figure out how to leave feedback after 90 days, but I wouldn’t assume that feedback left any earlier than that is a good idea. And then at that point, I’d leave a neg. I’d post thru the .tw site, and use both the neg and reply lines to say something like this: PITA buyer, rude, condescending, didn’t pay until NPB filed. First payment was allegedly mailed but never arrived. FIANLLY sent personal check (not an accepted payment), threatened feedback extortion. On my BBL, suggest other sellers do the same. jc
Response:
A friend of mine has been dealing with a troublesome buyer, and she’s wondering what kind of feedback she should leave for him. Here’s the relatively long short-story:
Is your friend selling personal property or reselling for profit? Buck — But that’s just my opinion.
Response:
I have had 2 feedbacks left removed by eBay without my permission:
I wasn’t aware of eBay needing any of our permission to remove a neg. 1) Seller only shipped item after 28 days and a PayPal complaint. and 2) No payment for 30 days. Non-paying bidder report filed and item relisted.
At face value the comments you left are proper and in no way in violation of any eBay policy. How long ago did this happen to you? Unless there was a change last week that we’re not aware of, I must say something else transpired. So, yes, I have first hand knowledge. The recipient has to report the feedback for it to be removed, and maybe not all eBay support people will remove the feedback, but it’s happened to me, so it could happen to others.
The ones that complained to eBay about the negs I left were unsuccessful, but that was last year. Besides, if you say that the person didn’t pay after (a month/30 days/2 weeks/etc.), saying you filed a NPB is redundant and just saying you filed NPB could give less of an effect for newbie users ("What’s an NPB?") instead of just saying the person doesn’t pay for what they bid on.
No, stating that you filed an UID (NPB) after the stating a buyer didn’t pay isn’t redundant and is proper procedure to let other "potential" NPB’ers know that you follow through with the complaint process 100%. Rita — http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2003/
Response:
As a seller, at this point I’d be very tempted to deposit the check and wait until it has cleared. Then….
In this case I would simply return the check, send them one final e-mail stating that the they are no longer eligible to purchase the item for failure to meet the terms of the auction due to a "high risk" nature (cc a copy to eBay), file NPB (UID), feedback optional (I would neg), and move on. Tell the buyer that you will not be sending the item until A) the check has cleared (don’t tell the buyer that it has cleared yet), and B) the buyer has left nicely worded positive feedback.
Doing this is blatant feedback extortion. Explain that since the buyer has completely ignored several key terms of the auction (contact within x days, payment within y days, payment by personal check) and didn’t make payment until the seller filed a NPB and said to never contact the seller again, that the seller has zero confidence that the buyer will behave properly in the future. So the seller requires assurance that this transaction will not end up going from bad (problems in getting paid) to worse (negative feedback).
No explanation required. You simply refund their money and state that they are no longer eligible to purchase the item due to their failure to meet the terms stated in the auction. I’d consider sending email that says it this way:
I wouldn’t! <Major snippage of unnecessary novel Rita — http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2003/
Response:
Additionally, the fb that JC suggested leaving is one that can be easily removed by the buyer since it mentions that the NPB process was completed (that counts as an "eBay investigation" in the feedback removal policy).
I’m not sure if that’s the case. I always leave negative feedback with the "NPB filed" and never had one removed yet. My format is simple and straightforward, "Never completed $473 transaction. Filed NPB w/eBay and relisted item". I would venture a guess that something more transpired since stating these basic facts aren’t grounds for feedback removal since I had a few buyers try it and fail. Rita — http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2003/
Response:
If you are not willing to do this, you can’t have the item and I’ll be keeping your payment as compensation for the extreme hassle it has been dealing with you.
Otherwise known as "theft." Stealing this PITA buyer’s money is not an acceptable action. Georgene
Response:
If her concern is how to encourage the buyer to not leave a neg, *take* the money in exchange for the certain neg, and then offer to send the item in exchange for a pos!
First your advice was placing the seller at risk of losing their eBay account by breaking the terms of service. Now you are advocating that the seller should break the law. I think you’d better stop giving advice before some fool takes you seriously. jim menning
Response:
At this point, she’s considering accepting the check just to get rid of the item and the buyer, but she doesn’t feel leaving a positive feedback would be right. If she were to complete the sale, what kind of feedback would be justified?
I had a similar buyer recently. They ignored me all the way up until I closed the dispute. The only reason why they contacted me then was because that strike got them NARU’d. They contacted me to say they sent me a personal check (that I don’t accept), but it never arrived. They kept emailing me to ask me to lift the suspension because it’s "not fair that they paid but are still suspended". A few days later, they emailed me from another account (that I promptly added to my BBL) to ask again. I told them again that I didn’t have a problem telling eBay I received payment if I had, but I hadn’t. I looked around one day (being a bit bored) and found that they were bidding on someone else’s stuff with this other ID name, so I sent it in. A few days after that, they emailed me again from a 3rd account offering to send me "full payment" but not expecting the item just to get their suspension lifted. I was thinking … if they will send me full payment not expecting the item, why didn’t they just send me full payment and get the item to begin with? That thought lasted 2 seconds before I sent that in to eBay, too. I didn’t get to leave feedback for them (but only because they were NARU). If I were going to leave feedback, it would be negative, not because they didn’t pay but because they are rude. I can deal with rude payers and nice (or silent) nonpayers (though nonpayers still get a strike even if they are nice … this is business, not personal). Rude nonpayers get negs and strikes.
Response:
Believe me, in this of all types of transactions she should never leave feedback until she sees what this clown leaves. Also, don’t send the item until the check clears.
And whatever else she does, remind her to put him on her blocked bidder list. <http://pages.ebay.com/services/buyandsell/biddermanagement.html -Bertha — Get thee behind me Satan! You push and I’ll steer…
Response:
FB is FB on the entire completed transaction, and this one seems far from complete. And there’s a general principle, as buyer or seller, that you never leave FB first if you’re even thinking about leaving a Neut, because it will almost certainly get you a Neg in return. — http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
Response:
At this point, she’s considering accepting the check just to get rid of the item and the buyer, but she doesn’t feel leaving a positive feedback would be right. If she were to complete the sale, what kind of feedback would be justified? Believe me, in this of all types of transactions she should never leave feedback until she sees what this clown leaves. Also, don’t send the item until the check clears.
As a seller, at this point I’d be very tempted to deposit the check and wait until it has cleared. Then…. Tell the buyer that you will not be sending the item until A) the check has cleared (don’t tell the buyer that it has cleared yet), and B) the buyer has left nicely worded positive feedback. Explain that since the buyer has completely ignored several key terms of the auction (contact within x days, payment within y days, payment by personal check) and didn’t make payment until the seller filed a NPB and said to never contact the seller again, that the seller has zero confidence that the buyer will behave properly in the future. So the seller requires assurance that this transaction will not end up going from bad (problems in getting paid) to worse (negative feedback). I’d consider sending email that says it this way: Dear Problem Buyer, This transaction has not gone well for me. Most of my buyers use my checkout feature as requested, contact me promptly, pay promptly, receive their item and are happy with their purchase. You have been a nightmare. Your emails to me have been rude and condescending, your actions have been uncooperative. Based on your replies to my emails, it looks like you are either not reading my emails at all, or completely ignoring them. You have now sent me a payment form (a personal check) that is not acceptable per my auction terms, and are now threatening that if I do not want to "got thru with this transaction, you will leave appropriate feedback". That is feedback extortion, and is a violation of eBay policy. I have reported this to eBay. I deposited your check and am waiting for it to clear. After it has cleared, I will contact you to tell you I am ready to ship your item. I will ship it as soon as you have left nicely worded positive feedback. Due to the tremendous number of problems I have had with you so far, I simply can not risk shipping the item until that has happened. Any further emails from you on this topic will be deleted unread. The only communications I ever want to hear from you in the future will be in the form of you leaving a nicely worded positive feedback. I’m very busy, but I’ll find time to check my feedback every now and then and once I see your nicely worded positive feedback, then your item will be shipped. If you are not willing to do this, you can’t have the item and I’ll be keeping your payment as compensation for the extreme hassle it has been dealing with you. Next time, be considerate and polite, and follow the seller’s auction terms in order to avoid the problems you created in this transaction. Sincerely, Fed Up Seller The buyer will be in a bit of a spot. If he doesn’t leave positive feedback, he won’t get his item! It’s too late to do a chargeback on the check, so he can’t just back out of the transaction without a loss. The seller has to be prepared for the buyer to get really mad at this point and decide to leave a neg instead of getting the item. (The price of the item will be a big part of this, if it’s a low price, the neg looks cheap, if it’s a high price then it’s likely the buyer is going to leave that positive in order to get his item.) The seller also has to be prepared for the seller to file a complaint with eBay, but since the buyer has been a royal PITA and hasn’t followed the auction terms, plus is now engaging in feedback extortion, if there is a complaint eBay should be able to easily figure out who the real problem is here. Oh, and the seller has already added this idiot to her Blocked Bidder List, right??? Finally, as to leaving feedback for this buyer, I wouldn’t leave anything until 89 days after the auction ends. I’d assume that this buyer is "too busy" to figure out how to leave feedback after 90 days, but I wouldn’t assume that feedback left any earlier than that is a good idea. And then at that point, I’d leave a neg. I’d post thru the .tw site, and use both the neg and reply lines to say something like this: PITA buyer, rude, condescending, didn’t pay until NPB filed. First payment was allegedly mailed but never arrived. FIANLLY sent personal check (not an accepted payment), threatened feedback extortion. On my BBL, suggest other sellers do the same. jc
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – he sent a personal check in violation of my friend’s auction terms Then the guy still hasn’t paid and it’s still a done deal. Return the check, block him and move on. If he leaves a neg, so be it. Explain the neg with a simple statement of the truth and neg him as a NPB. This is the route I suggested to her, and despite her fear of getting a retaliatory negative, I think she’s starting to lean this way as well. Thanks to all for the comments. It’s pretty clear that she’s going a neg from this jerk if she voids the payment.
Its pretty clear that she’s gonna get a neg, no matter what. The whole "experience" already shows that. The buyer is an ass, so just let the seller return the check, file the npb, receive the neg, comment on the neg for nonpayment or did not follow auction terms and block the ass from bidding again.
Response:
The buyer can file an NSS, but they won’t likely prevail, because they aren’t compliant with reasonable auction terms.
Even if the seller is an NSS, eBay won’t do anything in my experience. I filed it not that long ago. I expected to see the seller NARU because they told me the item wasn’t available at the EOA price but was available for $270 more. I sent it in to eBay. They can’t tell me what action they took (understandable), but it doesn’t appear they did anything (the seller isn’t NARU).
Response:
she closed the dispute.
If she closed the dispute, it’s a done deal. (I presume she indicated he was a NPB.) he sent a personal check in violation of my friend’s auction terms
Then the guy still hasn’t paid and it’s still a done deal. Return the check, block him and move on. If he leaves a neg, so be it. Explain the neg with a simple statement of the truth and neg him as a NPB. Ed
Response:
Dear Problem Buyer, … and are now threatening that if I do not want to "got thru with this transaction, you will leave appropriate feedback". That is feedback extortion, and is a violation of eBay policy. I have reported this to eBay. The only communications I ever want to hear from you in the future will be in the form of you leaving a nicely worded positive feedback.
Umm … this is also FB extortion, and if the buyer has more than a six pack of brain cells, they’ll report the seller. I’d void the check, inform the [non]buyer, and file NPB. — http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
Response:
she closed the dispute. If she closed the dispute, it’s a done deal. (I presume she indicated he was a NPB.)
Yes, she did. I was sort of hoping it would get him NARUed, since his feedback indicates he had a three or four problems like this before in the past year, but no such luck. That said, both my friend and I do believe that he sent the first payment and it just got lost. Unfortunately, a situation that could have been easily resolved turned into a horrible experience because the buyer’s a pinhead. he sent a personal check in violation of my friend’s auction terms Then the guy still hasn’t paid and it’s still a done deal. Return the check, block him and move on. If he leaves a neg, so be it. Explain the neg with a simple statement of the truth and neg him as a NPB.
This is the route I suggested to her, and despite her fear of getting a retaliatory negative, I think she’s starting to lean this way as well. Thanks to all for the comments.
Response:
Dear Problem Buyer, … and are now threatening that if I do not want to "got thru with this transaction, you will leave appropriate feedback". That is feedback extortion, and is a violation of eBay policy. I have reported this to eBay. The only communications I ever want to hear from you in the future will be in the form of you leaving a nicely worded positive feedback. Umm … this is also FB extortion,
Is it feedback extortion to respond to the other party’s feedback extortion attempt with a rebuttal, saying in essence "you first"? and if the buyer has more than a six pack of brain cells, they’ll report the seller. I’d void the check, inform the [non]buyer, and file NPB.
That would pretty much guarantee getting a neg from the buyer. How is what I suggested any worse?
Response:
Additionally, the fb that JC suggested leaving is one that can be easily removed by the buyer since it mentions that the NPB process was completed (that counts as an "eBay investigation" in the feedback removal policy).
Are you sure about that? I’ve seen tons of feedback that says that an NPB was filed. Do you know of any specific cases where simply saying "filed NPB" was grounds to have feedback removed? jc
Response:
he sent a personal check in violation of my friend’s auction terms Then the guy still hasn’t paid and it’s still a done deal. Return the check, block him and move on. If he leaves a neg, so be it. Explain the neg with a simple statement of the truth and neg him as a NPB. This is the route I suggested to her, and despite her fear of getting a retaliatory negative, I think she’s starting to lean this way as well. Thanks to all for the comments.
It’s pretty clear that she’s going a neg from this jerk if she voids the payment. If her concern is how to encourage the buyer to not leave a neg, *take* the money in exchange for the certain neg, and then offer to send the item in exchange for a pos! Now the buyer gets to decide what he wants more, the item or to leave nasty feedback (which he’s certainly planning to leave if she does *anything* else). I just don’t see the point in doing anything else (returning or voiding the check and canceling the transaction, or sending the item before the buyer leaves feedback) as it gives all the cards back to the buyer who clearly doesn’t want to play nice. Anything else is just begging for a neg. If the seller feels bad about taking the money and not shipping the item (if the buyer leaves a neg, or refuses to leave feedback before she ships), she can give the money to a charity and notify the buyer. That way she’s not keeping the money and the buyer isn’t being rewarded for being a NPB/jerk/neg leaver without cause. If she *really* wants to make a point, she can goad ^h let the buyer leave her a neg and then send a lump of coal, gift wrapped in xmas paper. :-) jc
Response:
That would pretty much guarantee getting a neg from the buyer. How is what I suggested any worse?
The way you suggested would get the negative, AND possibly a suspension. jim menning
Response:
Is it feedback extortion to respond to the other party’s feedback extortion attempt with a rebuttal, saying in essence "you first"?
Unless you’re absolutely sure it’s not, don’t do it. Buyer FBx is certainly grounds for suspending any personal policy you might have under which you normally observer "seller first after acceptance". I’d void the check, inform the [non]buyer, and file NPB. That would pretty much guarantee getting a neg from the buyer. How is what I suggested any worse?
NARU is arguably worse than a negative FB. The seller has more clout here than the buyer, as both have a single-shot FB phaser, but the seller also has an NPB blaster. However, you might offer the buyer the opportunity to abandon the deal, with no one posting FB at all. Say nothing else about FB, except in the context of such an offer. Explain that the alternative is that either they tender payment in accordance with the auction terms, or you’ll need to file NPB to recover your fees … … and oh so sorry, but NPB can lead to NARU once a buyer gets 3 of them. Do not mention FB. Ignore their FB threat. Let them think that: a. you aren’t particularly worried about FB, and b. they need to be worried about more than just FB Further, you initiate the NPB process only after undertaking the double-secret a.m.o.e. process to facilitate other latent NPBs. If two other sellers just happen to file NPB before you do, instant NARU (and no chance of their posting FB now, or if they get reinstated). Negative FB can often be SquareTraded, if it’s worth the effort and expense. Finally, if the buyer posts sufficiently non-compliant remarks in FB, that per-se, can make it easy to get it removed with no mutual agreement (but you probably need to request it – Ebay doesn’t seem to routinely police FB comments). — http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
Response:
That would pretty much guarantee getting a neg from the buyer. How is what I suggested any worse? NARU is arguably worse than a negative FB.
But in this case, the other party is an NPB. I don’t think eBay would NARU a seller for a single instance, where the seller is in essence saying: I don’t have to complete this transaction at all, since you didn’t pay within the required time. Since you brought up the topic of "appropriate feedback", I’m not going to go thru with this transaction, unless you leave me positive feedback first. Basically, the buyer goes into this 2 strikes down, the buyer is NPB and the buyer has threatened feedback extortion. Why on earth would eBay side with the buyer given these facts? jc
Response:
At this point, she’s considering accepting the check just to get rid of the item and the buyer, but she doesn’t feel leaving a positive feedback would be right. If she were to complete the sale, what kind of feedback would be justified?
Believe me, in this of all types of transactions she should never leave feedback until she sees what this clown leaves. Also, don’t send the item until the check clears.
Response:
A friend of mine has been dealing with a troublesome buyer, and she’s wondering what kind of feedback she should leave for him. Here’s the relatively long short-story: The buyer is condescending and uncooperative. In the beginning, my friend was friendly and polite in her e-mails; he responded rudely and condescendingly. He has at times claimed he’s too busy to have to deal with her because has a life, he has a job, and he doesn’t sit in front of the computer all day. He’s ignored her attempts to work things out–we have wondered if he even bothered to read her e-mails–and insists on doing everything according to his timetable. And then he had the gall to accuse my friend that she was unfair and hard to work with and that "maybe kindness would open doors" for her. His first payment was apparently lost in the mail. After waiting for it for two weeks (with a few e-mails back and forth in between in the meantime because he never bothered to go through checkout or tell my friend he mailed a payment), my friend told the buyer to send a replacement. He ignored her and insisted she wait for two more days for it to arrive (as if two more days would make a big difference). She refused and told him she had to receive the replacement within a week. The buyer didn’t respond. A week later, he asked if she had received his payment, and it was pretty obvious he had ignored her request and hadn’t sent a replacement. Frustrated by his unwillingness to work with her and his rude, obnoxious tone, she closed the dispute. Only at this point did the buyer relent and e-mailed to say he was sending a second payment (which arrived in two days), despite the fact she told him not to contact her anymore. He also wrote, "If you do not wish to complete this transaction, I will give you proper ebay feedback," which we both read as a threat to leave negative feedback. And of course, he sent a personal check in violation of my friend’s auction terms and despite her repeated warnings in earlier e-mails that she didn’t accept personal checks. At this point, she’s considering accepting the check just to get rid of the item and the buyer, but she doesn’t feel leaving a positive feedback would be right. If she were to complete the sale, what kind of feedback would be justified?
If you like this post and would like to receive updates from this blog, please subscribe our feed.