Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A region 1 DVD can be played in a UK DVD player, if the player has been hacked to allow it. This is illegal, but common. Chris In Australia, they actually do sell NTSC/PAL players that automatically decide what format is on the tape. You’ve swapped media again 
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I give up 
I was talking tape on purpose, but added that line in probably the worst place. Bottom line: don’t ship PAL to the non-PAL areas without asking the buyer if they know what they purchased first. Kris
Response:
I would say PAL is also VHS, but PAL is not NTSC (the North American, Korean, and Japanese tape format). Noooo! PAL, SECAM and NTSC are television formats. VHS is a tape format. You can get VHS tapes recorded in PAL, VHS tapes recorded in NTSC and VHS tapes recorded in SECAM. The tapes are (essentially) the same it is just recorded differently.
Maybe I wasn’t clear with what I wrote, but that’s what I said. Curtis. — How YOU doin’?
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Bottom line: don’t ship PAL to the non-PAL areas without asking the buyer if they know what they purchased first.
I’m inclined to agree. It’s a pain, but it’s less of a pain than dealing with a buyer who says "hey, there’s no pitcher on this here tay-up." Which is a risk with every US (and probably Canadian) buyer, but there are also enough collectors that it’s still worthwhile to include us in the market. Similarly, I figure it’s an easy thing for me, when I’m contacting the seller at end of auction, to add a reassurance that I *do* actually know it’s a PAL tape, so they don’t see the US address and start biting their nails . Deborah Stevenson
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A US buyer bought a PAL video tape where it clearly stated in my auction warning about this potential problem. They are now telling me it wont play in their VCR.
U.S. sellers: Note that there is an opportunity here to get a PAL tape, if you know where to sell it. I’m not involved with this auction, so talk to Ben.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "C-Beeby" wrote "Don Lancaster" wrote It’s hard to make a judgement on this because we don’t know what the listing actually said, but when selling PAL tapes, my stock listing line is: The listing obviously was not good enough, because it caused the buyer to pay for a useless product. rubbish Feathers Yep: that’s exactly what PAL is in the US.
Not for those who have multi-standard VCRs, it isn’t. Conversely, of course, most VCRs sold by UK retailers (the regular big chain stores, not specialist places) will play NTSC tapes quite happily. It’s actually very easy to adapt a VCR in "either direction," but it something most US consumers don’t get the benefit of.
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It’s hard to make a judgement on this because we don’t know what the listing actually said, but when selling PAL tapes, my stock listing line is: The listing obviously was not good enough, because it caused the buyer to pay for a useless product.
How can you say that when we don’t know the item in question? It might have had an extra large flashing caption saying "DON’T BUY IF YOU CAN’T PLAY PAL TAPE"; as I also pointed out, it could have been in the "DVD, Film & TV Videos: PAL" sub-category. You don’t have to read this newsgroup for very long to see a whole heap of horror stories about dumb buyers, so why are you automatically assuming that a listing that you’ve never read "was not good enough"?
Response:
"Kris Baker" wrote in a message … In Australia, they actually do sell NTSC/PAL players that automatically decide what format is on the tape. Kris, Yep, same as in the UK. The reason for it is twofold. (1) More stuff originates from the US than other countries, so it makes sense for the UK and Australia to be able to play them.
No, Region 2 DVD players are dual-standard because Region 2 comprises Europe & South Africa (PAL*), the Middle East (mostly PAL*), and Japan (NTSC). Similarly, Region 4 is Australia & New Zealand (PAL), Mexico (NTSC), and South America (various PAL, NTSC, PAL-M & PAL-N). Also, the circuits for doing so are mostly already there anyway as PAL is based somewhat on NTSC, but improved because it came later and was able to adjust for problems discovered with NTSC.
No, they’re there because the DVD specification for Region 2 & 4 players says that they have to be able to play back both PAL and NTSC discs. You’re completely off-beam with that explanation, as well. Some Region 2 players sold in PAL territories include a digital standards converter, but most simply transcode the NTSC signal to a PAL-60 one, in the same was that most PAL VCRs will play NTSC tapes to most modern TV sets. (2) Adding PAL circuits to US equipment would be more expensive, and most stuff gets converted by the video company to NTSC before being sold here anyway.
Region 1 players are NTSC only because Region 1 comprises only the United States & Canada (both NTSC).
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Kris Baker" wrote in a message … The best thing to do is refer them (gently) to your item description, and I hope it mentions that PAL videos do not work on US-type systems (I know that Region 1 and Region 2 are the technical terms, but they probably don’t know about that). VHS is the term most North Americans use. Kris, I think you’re confusing your terms a bit. Region 1 and Region 2 are DVD terms. They indicate whether or not the DVD player is allowed to play the disc, per agreements that protect the importers and retailers in America and the UK, respectively. NTSC and PAL are video standards. NTSC is American, PAL is UK. a VHS tape or DVD can be recorded in either format. A tape recorded in NTSC can be played in a UK VCR. It automatically converts the signal to PAL before sending it to the TV.
No, generally they don’t. PAL VCRs that will play NTSC tapes rely on the fact that most modern TV sets can lock onto the basic monochrome picture of either signal, and all that is needed then is to transcode the colour element of the signal from NTSC to PAL. The output is therefore a 525-line 60Hz picture, but with PAL colour, hence the term "PAL-60" used to describe it. This is not a proper conversion to 625-line/50Hz PAL, as attempting to record it on a regular PAL VCR will confirm. A PAL tape can not be played in a US VCR because it doesn’t have the circuits to do a conversion.
It is possible to buy NSTC VCRs with NTSC-50 playback of PAL tapes, but they are generally only available through specialist outlets. (If you want the technical specs, NTSC is 525 lines, 60 Hz (30 fps). Pal is 625 lines, 50 Hz (25 fps). Also, the method of adding the color signal (colour in UK) is very different.) A region 1 DVD can be played in a UK DVD player, if the player has been hacked to allow it. This is illegal, but common.
No it isn’t. In any case, most of the players now being sold in the UK are Region-free out of the box, others require a simple handset hack, while a very small minority require physical "chipping."
Response:
In Australia, they actually do sell NTSC/PAL players that automatically decide what format is on the tape. Many PAL countries do have dual/multistandard VCRs readily available. They’re evan available in the US, though you need a separate converter, because of the NTSC TV, to get a really decent conversion. However, Chris is talking about DVDs again.
There are also NTSC and PAL formats for DVDs and DVD players. I have several Region 2 DVDs that are PAL format. My region-free player has no problem with either the region, or the PAL (there is a switch on th back that allows the player to play both PAL and NTSC format DVDs). The only problem is my *TV* doesn’t allow PAL format. I need to go buy a new TV that can play PAL signals as well as the regular NTSC signals (the salesman called it a "multi" TV… have no idea what the correct term is in English). Curtis. — How YOU doin’?
Response:
"Kris Baker" wrote in a message … In Australia, they actually do sell NTSC/PAL players that automatically decide what format is on the tape.
Kris, Yep, same as in the UK. The reason for it is twofold. (1) More stuff originates from the US than other countries, so it makes sense for the UK and Australia to be able to play them. Also, the circuits for doing so are mostly already there anyway as PAL is based somewhat on NTSC, but improved because it came later and was able to adjust for problems discovered with NTSC. (2) Adding PAL circuits to US equipment would be more expensive, and most stuff gets converted by the video company to NTSC before being sold here anyway. Chris — See how not to make an auction at http://members.cox.net/ckeavy
Response:
A region 1 DVD can be played in a UK DVD player, if the player has been hacked to allow it. This is illegal, but common. Chris In Australia, they actually do sell NTSC/PAL players that automatically decide what format is on the tape.
You’ve swapped media again . Many PAL countries do have dual/multistandard VCRs readily available. They’re evan available in the US, though you need a separate converter, because of the NTSC TV, to get a really decent conversion. However, Chris is talking about DVDs again. Since conversion in this is largely a programmable matter, there are hacks available for most regions (though they don’t necessarily work in all DVD players). You can also get region free DVD players, which are legal (if not necessarily the darlings of the DVD industry). Because of the popularity of the hacks, the PAL countries don’t seem particularly interested in making multistandard/multiregion DVD players popular in the way multistandard VCRs are there. Deborah Stevenson
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Kris Baker" wrote in a message … The best thing to do is refer them (gently) to your item description, and I hope it mentions that PAL videos do not work on US-type systems (I know that Region 1 and Region 2 are the technical terms, but they probably don’t know about that). VHS is the term most North Americans use. Kris, I think you’re confusing your terms a bit. Region 1 and Region 2 are DVD terms. They indicate whether or not the DVD player is allowed to play the disc, per agreements that protect the importers and retailers in America and the UK, respectively.
Yes, I did. NTSC and PAL are video standards. NTSC is American, PAL is UK. a VHS tape or DVD can be recorded in either format. A tape recorded in NTSC can be played in a UK VCR. It automatically converts the signal to PAL before sending it to the TV. A PAL tape can not be played in a US VCR because it doesn’t have the circuits to do a conversion.
That part I’m clear on. (If you want the technical specs, NTSC is 525 lines, 60 Hz (30 fps). Pal is 625 lines, 50 Hz (25 fps). Also, the method of adding the color signal (colour in UK) is very different.) A region 1 DVD can be played in a UK DVD player, if the player has been hacked to allow it. This is illegal, but common. Chris
In Australia, they actually do sell NTSC/PAL players that automatically decide what format is on the tape. Kris
Response:
"Kris Baker" wrote in a message … The best thing to do is refer them (gently) to your item description, and I hope it mentions that PAL videos do not work on US-type systems (I know that Region 1 and Region 2 are the technical terms, but they probably don’t know about that). VHS is the term most North Americans use.
Kris, I think you’re confusing your terms a bit. Region 1 and Region 2 are DVD terms. They indicate whether or not the DVD player is allowed to play the disc, per agreements that protect the importers and retailers in America and the UK, respectively. NTSC and PAL are video standards. NTSC is American, PAL is UK. a VHS tape or DVD can be recorded in either format. A tape recorded in NTSC can be played in a UK VCR. It automatically converts the signal to PAL before sending it to the TV. A PAL tape can not be played in a US VCR because it doesn’t have the circuits to do a conversion. (If you want the technical specs, NTSC is 525 lines, 60 Hz (30 fps). Pal is 625 lines, 50 Hz (25 fps). Also, the method of adding the color signal (colour in UK) is very different.) A region 1 DVD can be played in a UK DVD player, if the player has been hacked to allow it. This is illegal, but common. Chris — See how not to make an auction at http://members.cox.net/ckeavy
Response:
It’s hard to make a judgement on this because we don’t know what the listing actually said, but when selling PAL tapes, my stock listing line is: The listing obviously was not good enough, because it caused the buyer to pay for a useless product.
rubbish Feathers
Response:
"C-Beeby" wrote "Don Lancaster" wrote It’s hard to make a judgement on this because we don’t know what the listing actually said, but when selling PAL tapes, my stock listing line is: The listing obviously was not good enough, because it caused the buyer to pay for a useless product. rubbish Feathers
Yep: that’s exactly what PAL is in the US. Nice to see that you agree with Don. ;) link
Response:
It’s hard to make a judgement on this because we don’t know what the listing actually said, but when selling PAL tapes, my stock listing line is:
The listing obviously was not good enough, because it caused the buyer to pay for a useless product. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Response:
Obviously you mislead the buyer and ripped them off, selling them a useless product. Full refund of all costs, of course.
If you’d bothered to read the original post you would have ascertained that this was not the case, and why should the seller be responsible for the buyer’s ignorance? Point them at the listing and ride the neg Feathers
Response:
A US buyer bought a PAL video tape where it clearly stated in my auction warning about this potential problem. They are now telling me it wont play in their VCR. How do I deal with this? Explain why it isnt working and say tough luck its your fault for not reading the description? They paid via Pay Pal (would pay pal give them their money back?). What does Ebay say about instances like this? The postage to send it back to UK is as much as the tape is worth. Of course a main concern of mine is getting an undeserved negative feedback.
Obviously you mislead the buyer and ripped them off, selling them a useless product. Full refund of all costs, of course. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Response:
Your best bet is to not worry about undeserved negative feedback. They’re a fact of life on eBay, and worrying about it won’t change anything since it’s undeserved anyway. I’d try to tell him, in a polite way, that your business can’t afford to refund listings due to buyer mistakes. If he still yells and screams, then give him the refund if it makes you happy. But at least try to assert your opinion before you do so. Laters, Eric
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A US buyer bought a PAL video tape where it clearly stated in my auction warning about this potential problem. They are now telling me it wont play in their VCR. How do I deal with this? Explain why it isnt working and say tough luck its your fault for not reading the description? They paid via Pay Pal (would pay pal give them their money back?). What does Ebay say about instances like this? The postage to send it back to UK is as much as the tape is worth. Of course a main concern of mine is getting an undeserved negative feedback.
Response:
I would say PAL is also VHS, but PAL is not NTSC (the North American, Korean, and Japanese tape format).
Noooo! PAL, SECAM and NTSC are television formats. VHS is a tape format. You can get VHS tapes recorded in PAL, VHS tapes recorded in NTSC and VHS tapes recorded in SECAM. The tapes are (essentially) the same it is just recorded differently. sPoNiX
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A US buyer bought a PAL video tape where it clearly stated in my auction warning about this potential problem. They are now telling me it wont play in their VCR. How do I deal with this? Explain why it isnt working and say tough luck its your fault for not reading the description? They paid via Pay Pal (would pay pal give them their money back?). What does Ebay say about instances like this? The postage to send it back to UK is as much as the tape is worth. Of course a main concern of mine is getting an undeserved negative feedback. The best thing to do is refer them (gently) to your item description, and I hope it mentions that PAL videos do not work on US-type systems (I know that Region 1 and Region 2 are the technical terms, but they probably don’t know about that). VHS is the term most North Americans use. Since most North Americans aren’t aware of that, it’s something that *should* be explained in the item description, and also in the end-of-auction email — to avoid such a mess in the future. I wouldn’t have shipped it to the US, unless I knew the buyer was aware of what PAL meant. Since the cost to return the item (not your responsibility to repay) isn’t worth it, about all you can do is tell them that they did receive what they purchased and that they can re-sell it on eBay OR see if there’s a video transfer service in their town. IF you want to be a nice guy, you could offer to refund their purchase price (but not shipping) once it’s returned to you. But I don’t see that much of an obligation if this item is as low-priced as you say. PayPal doesn’t intercede on issues of item quality, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t do a chargeback through their credit card company. Kris
As we are only talking about a few pounds, in the interest of customer relations, explain the compatibility situation and then offer a refund. Relist the item. When selling Videos or DVDs it is IMPERATIVE that your auction description draws attention to the difference between PAL and NTSC and Region codes in large type containing specifically the words "Bidders from the US …". In my experience, many (perhaps most) American buyers have no idea about the PAL/NTSC, Region 1/2 issues. I mean that in no disrespect but as a fact of life. I’ve had at least 4 sales go belly-up because of that. In one case, though, the buyer was also a seller and opted to keep the video and relist it himself. He got slightly more than he bought it from me for. Max
Response:
The best thing to do is refer them (gently) to your item description, and I hope it mentions that PAL videos do not work on US-type systems (I know that Region 1 and Region 2 are the technical terms, but they probably don’t know about that).
Region 1 and Region 2 are for DVDs, not tapes (that I know of anyway… and I worked in a video store for a year, of course not recently). VHS is the term most North Americans use.
I would say PAL is also VHS, but PAL is not NTSC (the North American, Korean, and Japanese tape format). I wouldn’t have shipped it to the US, unless I knew the buyer was aware of what PAL meant.
Me too. Curtis. — How YOU doin’?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A US buyer bought a PAL video tape where it clearly stated in my auction warning about this potential problem. They are now telling me it wont play in their VCR. How do I deal with this? Explain why it isnt working and say tough luck its your fault for not reading the description? They paid via Pay Pal (would pay pal give them their money back?). What does Ebay say about instances like this? The postage to send it back to UK is as much as the tape is worth. Of course a main concern of mine is getting an undeserved negative feedback. The best thing to do is refer them (gently) to your item description, and I hope it mentions that PAL videos do not work on US-type systems (I know that Region 1 and Region 2 are the technical terms, but they probably don’t know about that). VHS is the term most North Americans use.
The Region thing technically only applies to DVDs, although I have seen some people start to apply it erroneously to VHS as well. Region 2 is Europe _and_ Japan – Europe being mostly PAL and Japan being NTSC (like North America). Since most North Americans aren’t aware of that, it’s something that *should* be explained in the item description, and also in the end-of-auction email — to avoid such a mess in the future.
It’s hard to make a judgement on this because we don’t know what the listing actually said, but when selling PAL tapes, my stock listing line is: "Please note that this is a UK/Western European/Australasian PAL standard VHS recording. NTSC (North America, Japan) or SECAM (France, Eastern Europe) users, please make sure your equipment will play this format, as returns cannot be accepted due to incompatability discovered after purchase." I wouldn’t have shipped it to the US, unless I knew the buyer was aware of what PAL meant.
There is, of course, a separate category for "DVD, Film & TV Videos: PAL" and if the tape in question was listed under it, that does strengthen the seller’s case a bit, although again we do need to see the actual listing to know how clear it was. I’ve noticed that a lot of UK sellers don’t draw attention to the tape format, but I think that’s usually a case of them not occurring to them, rather than being deliberately misleading. I did, though, see one guy in the UK auctioning a load of Betamax tapes that were clearly American editions, but he didn’t mention this in the listing (IIRC, he claimed not to have a working Beta VCR, and so couldn’t check). I e-mailed him to point out that he should be listing them properly, but when they didn’t sell he re-listed them in exactly the same way! Since the cost to return the item (not your responsibility to repay) isn’t worth it, about all you can do is tell them that they did receive what they purchased and that they can re-sell it on eBay OR see if there’s a video transfer service in their town.
That’s what I’d probably do. If it’s clear enough in the listing, it’s basically the buyer’s fault, although this is based on the sale price being so reportedly low. If I’d got
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