Question:
Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee.
"Feel free, i’ll file suit in your local court and sue you for the money, plus the chargeback fee, plus costs" Should at least make him/her think twice… — Alex Threlfall Cyberprog New Media www.cyberprog.net tel – 0870 446 0789 fax – 0870 446 1789
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. The mushy sound is likely due to dirty pickup head. Tell him to clean the head using a Q-tip swab and isopropyl alcohol. Takes about a minute. The guy sounds like hes worked on these before, and in fact stated that he has already cleaned all contact surfaces ect. "Mushy" is what 8-tracks sounded like when they were new, and they sound worse now, since no new tapes have been manufactured for 25 years or more and the oxide is falling off the cheap tape they used to make the old ones. They’re never going to sound any better.
I tried running a few of my 8 tracks a few years ago to see how bad they were. Every one broke as the splice ran over the play head. Never did get to hear a second track.
Response:
You, as this guy is, can argue technicalities if you wish. He saw the auction, presumably read the description… There’s no technicalities about it. You made a deal off eBay. So nothing in your previous eBay listing has anything to do with your current deal.
I have nothing to add to what was already said. You can preach technicalities until your blue in the face, and that won’t change the fact that two adults, with two brain cells and a shred of honor to rub against each other,would have known the terms between the auction and the sale were the same. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’m perfectly aware of what kind of transaction it was, thank you. Then you’re perfectly aware that what you did was against the eBay TOS. You’ve got a problem with your own eBay ethics and now someone’s taking advantage of you for those poor ethics. Your legs are shaking. He has the upper ground. If you insist on breaking the rules on your side of the transaction, you don’t have any grounds for complaining. You sold the guy an item that doesn’t work to his satisfaction. Fix the problem.
Sorry lump. Legs aren’t quite shaking yet. Specially over pocket change – Though I compliment your childishly melodramatic writing style. Its principles I’m concerned with – And as far as that goes, I’m looking down on both him and you.
Response:
…two adults, with two brain cells and a shred of honor…
Looks to me like it’s the other guy that has the brain cells. He’s gonna end up with the widget and the money. Looks to me like neither of you have that shred of honor. He violated the TOS because he’s a thief. You violated the TOS because you’re greedy. …I’m looking down on both him and you.
Fascinating. You got busted and now you’re looking down on those that busted you. When the fish swim upstream in a glass house, don’t pull the sweater over your rose colored glasses till the cows come home. Lumpy — In Your Ears for 40 Years http://www.lumpymusic.com
Response:
Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee. "Feel free, i’ll file suit in your local court and sue you for the money, plus the chargeback fee, plus costs"
The only evidence I have of shipping is his emails stating that the item was received, and he was not satisfied. No tracking/confirmation. Hes in PA, I’m in MI. Factors ? Should at least make him/her think twice…
him.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had an item auctioning was an old 8 track player. Item received no bids, but received an offer after it was over to purchase for a lesser price. I replied that what I listed in the auction was the minimum that I was willing to take, the buyer relented and sent me through paypal the starting bid for the item, plus shipping which was about $35. I was very clear in the auction that I had no way to test this item, that when plugged in it powered up, but could not guarantee its functionality at all. As with any old electronic item, it was being sold as is. Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. I refused, telling the person for future reference not to bid/ make offers on auctions unless you can abide by the terms. Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee. Can people really just reverse charges like that on a whim, with no other reason besides they want to ? If so, whats to stop people from doing this in any case ? He could have loved the item, and been over pleased with it, yet still reversed the charges and got a free tape deck. It sounds to me like you were scammed. The person who conducted the off-ebay buy knew what he was doing all along. I suggest that you lost your money. Byte the bullet and give him a refund or let him do a Chargeback, but write it off either way and take this as lesson learned. Buck
True enough. Even if I caved in to his demands, theres little to guarantee that he wouldn’t simply do a charge back anyways. I’m shipping out to Iraq in a few weeks, and want this crap cleared up before I leave so it doesn’t mess up my wifes activity – We pretty much have joint everything ebay/paypal/bank accounts. Lesson learned – Accept no CC funded payments from off ebay shysters.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. The mushy sound is likely due to dirty pickup head. Tell him to clean the head using a Q-tip swab and isopropyl alcohol. Takes about a minute. The guy sounds like hes worked on these before, and in fact stated that he has already cleaned all contact surfaces ect. "Mushy" is what 8-tracks sounded like when they were new, and they sound worse now, since no new tapes have been manufactured for 25 years or more and the oxide is falling off the cheap tape they used to make the old ones. They’re never going to sound any better. I agree with the others here that he returns the machine and gets his money back for the machine and one way shipping or he gets zilch. If he tries to pull back the money from Paypal, offer this and nothing else.
The thing about that is this will cost about $15 to ship – Which is the amount he is after. I sold the item for $20 + $15 shipping. He wants the $20 back – Basically eating the shipping cost, and me making $0 on the transaction. Like I said in other threads in this post, its principle I’m concerned with, and not pocket change. I might try that offer though because: 1) It will probably spite him & 2) I’d have the 8 track player back. Useless as it may be, I’m somewhat attached to it, having had it in my possession since I was like 14. If he tries anything else, it will probably cost him his PP account.
How is that ?
Response:
Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. The mushy sound is likely due to dirty pickup head. Tell him to clean the head using a Q-tip swab and isopropyl alcohol. Takes about a minute. The guy sounds like hes worked on these before, and in fact stated that he has already cleaned all contact surfaces ect.
"Mushy" is what 8-tracks sounded like when they were new, and they sound worse now, since no new tapes have been manufactured for 25 years or more and the oxide is falling off the cheap tape they used to make the old ones. They’re never going to sound any better. I agree with the others here that he returns the machine and gets his money back for the machine and one way shipping or he gets zilch. If he tries to pull back the money from Paypal, offer this and nothing else. If he tries anything else, it will probably cost him his PP account.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had an item auctioning was an old 8 track player. Item received no bids, but received an offer after it was over to purchase for a lesser price. I replied that what I listed in the auction was the minimum that I was willing to take, the buyer relented and sent me through paypal the starting bid for the item, plus shipping which was about $35. I was very clear in the auction that I had no way to test this item, that when plugged in it powered up, but could not guarantee its functionality at all. As with any old electronic item, it was being sold as is. Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. I refused, telling the person for future reference not to bid/ make offers on auctions unless you can abide by the terms. Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee. Can people really just reverse charges like that on a whim, with no other reason besides they want to ? If so, whats to stop people from doing this in any case ? He could have loved the item, and been over pleased with it, yet still reversed the charges and got a free tape deck.
It sounds to me like you were scammed. The person who conducted the off-ebay buy knew what he was doing all along. I suggest that you lost your money. Byte the bullet and give him a refund or let him do a Chargeback, but write it off either way and take this as lesson learned. Buck — But that’s just my opinion.
Response:
Guess I didn’t come right out and say it, but … this was an off ebay transaction. Buyer made an offer after the auction closed, and I accepted.
Right … so really, it’s simple ripoff. And the moral is, even if you deal ‘outside the auction’, don’t deal outside ebay – just set up a private auction at the agreed price. And if the bidder has already shown signs of slimeyness, ignore him! But you have my sympathy – we’ve all been there! A
Response:
… don’t deal outside ebay …
Unless the seller already has a .com website set up for such business. – just set up a private auction at the agreed price.
This may seem like a bit of trouble, since it does cost the seller fees, but … It costs the buyer nothing to do this. If they object, listen carefully to the warning siren that they just set off. — http://www.access-one.com/rjn email4rjn AT yahoo DOT com NOT speaking for any employer, client or Internet Service Provider.
Response:
Can people really just reverse charges like that on a whim, with no other reason besides they want to ? If so, whats to stop people from doing this in any case ? He could have loved the item, and been over pleased with it, yet still reversed the charges and got a free tape deck.
Yes, under certain circumstances, and a "card not present" transaction is one of those circumstances. Unfortunately, that’s a risk that you take when you accept credit cards, no matter who processes them. A
Response:
"Jesse" wrote … Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee.
That’s extortion – and you could probably win if you fight it. But for $35, and a buyer who was trouble from the start, it just ain’t worth it. I’d offer a full refund, payable when you receive the item, then list again and block him. It’ll go, believe me, it’ll go! — Andrew eBay Weirdities http://www.weirdity.com/ebay/
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Jesse" wrote … Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee. That’s extortion – and you could probably win if you fight it.
Thats exactly what it is, and by chance the exact term I used in a reply composed, but not sent yet. But for $35, and a buyer who was trouble from the start, it just ain’t worth it. I’d offer a full refund, payable when you receive the item, then list again and block him. It’ll go, believe me, it’ll go!
Guess I didn’t come right out and say it, but the implication was there in the OP – This was an off ebay transaction. Buyer made an offer after the auction closed, and I accepted.
Response:
Well, from hindsight your correct – I should have requested a MO as method of payment.
Money orders can be forged, and it may take the bank a while to discover the forgery. If I were you I would stop responding no matter what he emails, dispute it with Paypal if he does a chargeback, and move on, having learned a lesson about off-ebay sales. The vast majority of buyers and sellers who have good feedback are honest and reliable.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had an item auctioning was an old 8 track player. Item received no bids, but received an offer after it was over to purchase for a lesser price… I was very clear in the auction that I had no way to test this item, that when plugged in it powered up, but could not guarantee its functionality at all… Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. I refused, telling the person for future reference not to bid/ make offers on auctions unless you can abide by the terms. What were the terms of your sale?
You, as this guy is, can argue technicalities if you wish. He saw the auction, presumably read the description in which I plainly stated that it powered up, and beyond that I could not guarantee its functionality at all, as I have no way to hook up a 30 year old 8 track player to anything. I’m guessing he also read the "ITEM SOLD AS IS" part too. Words, of course, can be minced, and it can be stated that that was the auction, now what about the sale. It never occurred to me to send a separate, itemised list of separate terms for the sale – And in fact if I did, it wouldn’t have taken much thought because they would have been exactly the same. Whatever the terms of the auction WERE no longer apply. The auction ended, no sale. What you’ve done is then conducted another sale, outside of eBay. You can’t refer back to the terms of the eBay sale which is now closed.
I’m perfectly aware of what kind of transaction it was, thank you.
Response:
Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. The mushy sound is likely due to dirty pickup head. Tell him to clean the head using a Q-tip swab and isopropyl alcohol. Takes about a minute.
The guy sounds like hes worked on these before, and in fact stated that he has already cleaned all contact surfaces ect.
Response:
Well, from hindsight your correct – I should have requested a MO as method of payment. Money orders can be forged, and it may take the bank a while to discover the forgery.
True. Short of a cash only policy, which would obviously reduce potential sales to near zero, there is no 100% safe way to conduct an online transaction. If I were you I would stop responding no matter what he emails, dispute it with Paypal if he does a chargeback, and move on, having learned a lesson about off-ebay sales. The vast majority of buyers and sellers who have good feedback are honest and reliable.
I never got a chance to see his fb. I suppose the first time he contacted me I could have tracked his member info, but since that first contact, the email addy he has been using is not tied into an ebay account, and I’ve long since deleted his original contact email. He has a ‘verified’ paypal rating in the hundreds though, so apparently hes done a fair amount of transactions.
Response:
You, as this guy is, can argue technicalities if you wish. He saw the auction, presumably read the description…
There’s no technicalities about it. You made a deal off eBay. So nothing in your previous eBay listing has anything to do with your current deal. I’m perfectly aware of what kind of transaction it was, thank you.
Then you’re perfectly aware that what you did was against the eBay TOS. You’ve got a problem with your own eBay ethics and now someone’s taking advantage of you for those poor ethics. Your legs are shaking. He has the upper ground. If you insist on breaking the rules on your side of the transaction, you don’t have any grounds for complaining. You sold the guy an item that doesn’t work to his satisfaction. Fix the problem. Lumpy — In Your Ears for 40 Years http://www.lumpymusic.com
Response:
Had an item auctioning was an old 8 track player. Item received no bids, but received an offer after it was over to purchase for a lesser price… I was very clear in the auction that I had no way to test this item, that when plugged in it powered up, but could not guarantee its functionality at all… Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. I refused, telling the person for future reference not to bid/ make offers on auctions unless you can abide by the terms.
What were the terms of your sale? Whatever the terms of the auction WERE no longer apply. The auction ended, no sale. What you’ve done is then conducted another sale, outside of eBay. You can’t refer back to the terms of the eBay sale which is now closed. You and the buyer are both in violation for the off eBay deal. Don will give you the only logical option. Lumpy — In Your Ears for 40 Years http://www.lumpymusic.com
Response:
Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’.
The mushy sound is likely due to dirty pickup head. Tell him to clean the head using a Q-tip swab and isopropyl alcohol. Takes about a minute. Regards, Boris Mohar Got Knock? – see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca
Response:
Can people really just reverse charges like that on a whim, with no other reason besides they want to ?
Yes. This is the same with any method of accepting credit cards and any online method of transferring money. First, if the buyer tells the bank that they did not get what they paid for (whether non-delivery or not-as-described), they will get their money back. The bank does not verify the claim of not-as-described (though for expensive items they may require the buyer to give up the item to the bank). Second, for any "card-not-present transaction" (the merchant neither swiped the physical card through their terminal nor made a carbon impression) _or_ any transaction where the merchant did not obtain the cardholder’s signature, if the buyer makes any complaint of any sort then the bank will give them their money back. Basically, credit card payment services agree to move money from point A to point B under certain conditions, and under certain other conditions the payment will be reversed. Whether the buyer actually owes you money is not considered as part of these conditions. No-one is obligated to collect your accounts payable for you. PayPal’s Seller Protection Plan protects you against only a small number of the possible things that can go wrong, and only some of the time — but other methods of accepting credit cards don’t even cover the things that the PP SPP covers. Selling on eBay requires trusting the buyer (unless you accept only cash or Western Union wire transfers, maybe). Some buyers do betray this trust. If it happens regularly, I’d see what changes you can make to stop attracting scammers. If it happens just once, I wouldn’t take it out on your other customers — just consider it a (very small) part of the cost of doing business and move on. Now, I would apply whatever consequences you can to this person (e.g. NPB report if it were an eBay sale). I don’t want him to get off easy here but, honestly, I can’t think of anything you can do or threaten that will allow you to keep the money at this point.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had an item auctioning was an old 8 track player. Item received no bids, but received an offer after it was over to purchase for a lesser price. I replied that what I listed in the auction was the minimum that I was willing to take, the buyer relented and sent me through paypal the starting bid for the item, plus shipping which was about $35. I was very clear in the auction that I had no way to test this item, that when plugged in it powered up, but could not guarantee its functionality at all. As with any old electronic item, it was being sold as is. Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. I refused, telling the person for future reference not to bid/ make offers on auctions unless you can abide by the terms. Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee. Can people really just reverse charges like that on a whim, with no other reason besides they want to ? If so, whats to stop people from doing this in any case ? He could have loved the item, and been over pleased with it, yet still reversed the charges and got a free tape deck. Yes, people can do a chargeback, but it tends to screw up their own Paypal account if Papyal subsequently find in the seller’s favour. That aside, however, you were very foolish to sell direct, as you have lost what inherent protection there is in doing so through an eBay auction. If you had relisted with a BIN and retristed it to one pre-approved bidder (i.e. your would-be buyer), this would have tied them to the terms of the auction which, as you said, detailed that you could not confirm the unit was functioning. Secondly, you would have had the leverage of feedback (assuming you didn’t thrown that card away immediately they paid, but rather waiting until they’d left feedback first), which might have discouraged the buyer from this course of action.
Well, from hindsight your correct – I should have requested a MO as method of payment. And of course selling outside of ebay has its inherent risks – On a $20 item, which was already re-listed, I would have done better just to toss the thing off a viaduct than to incur yet more relisting/end of auction fees. I made close to nothing on this deal – Item was large and heavy and cost over $15 to ship. Spent a couple hours tracking down the right sized box, cutting out custom styrofoam packing blocks,spent half an hour waiting in a holiday post office line – Basically did this as a favor .. And now this. Yeah I wish I would have got package tracking/delivery confirmation now. The only proof that I have that the item was received are emails from the buyer, stating of course that he has the item and is dis-satisfied with it – And I’m guessing that that won’t be enough for PP. Oh well you live and learn – I’m going to bite the bullet and tell the guy to fly a kite, then place him in my spam filter and wait for the results.
Response:
Had an item auctioning was an old 8 track player. Item received no bids, but received an offer after it was over to purchase for a lesser price. I replied that what I listed in the auction was the minimum that I was willing to take, the buyer relented and sent me through paypal the starting bid for the item, plus shipping which was about $35. I was very clear in the auction that I had no way to test this item, that when plugged in it powered up, but could not guarantee its functionality at all. As with any old electronic item, it was being sold as is. Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. I refused, telling the person for future reference not to bid/ make offers on auctions unless you can abide by the terms. Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee. Can people really just reverse charges like that on a whim, with no other reason besides they want to ? If so, whats to stop people from doing this in any case ? He could have loved the item, and been over pleased with it, yet still reversed the charges and got a free tape deck.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Had an item auctioning was an old 8 track player. Item received no bids, but received an offer after it was over to purchase for a lesser price. I replied that what I listed in the auction was the minimum that I was willing to take, the buyer relented and sent me through paypal the starting bid for the item, plus shipping which was about $35. I was very clear in the auction that I had no way to test this item, that when plugged in it powered up, but could not guarantee its functionality at all. As with any old electronic item, it was being sold as is. Now the buyer wants a complete refund, saying that it ’sounds mushy’. I refused, telling the person for future reference not to bid/ make offers on auctions unless you can abide by the terms. Buyer then said : I paid for that deck using a credit card through paypal- if you don’t refund the extra $15, I’ll reverse the entire $35 amount- and paypal will back charge you. They will also charge you a FEE for that, so you’ll be out the deck and out the shipping money, and out some more due to the fee. Can people really just reverse charges like that on a whim, with no other reason besides they want to ? If so, whats to stop people from doing this in any case ? He could have loved the item, and been over pleased with it, yet still reversed the charges and got a free tape deck.
Yes, people can do a chargeback, but it tends to screw up their own Paypal account if Papyal subsequently find in the seller’s favour. That aside, however, you were very foolish to sell direct, as you have lost what inherent protection there is in doing so through an eBay auction. If you had relisted with a BIN and retristed it to one pre-approved bidder (i.e. your would-be buyer), this would have tied them to the terms of the auction which, as you said, detailed that you could not confirm the unit was functioning. Secondly, you would have had the leverage of feedback (assuming you didn’t thrown that card away immediately they paid, but rather waiting until they’d left feedback first), which might have discouraged the buyer from this course of action.
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