Question:
You need to sue both paypal and the buyer. WHy are you letting them do this to you? Get thyself to a competent lawyer. Mention FCRA and FDCPA, specifically. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I refuse to upgrade, but I am a nickel and dime seller. I’d get a bank account and keep a zero balance in it if you need to take PayPal. This is what happens then. Paypal attempts to take the money out of your checking account often (maybe even daily). Everytime they do, your bank charges a overdraft or no funds fee. If they get the $$$ that way, fine. If they do not, Paypal just hands your account over to a collection agency. If you do not pay, your credit report gets rather ruined. True story. Been there, done all of that. I shipped a buyer $350 worth of DVD’s from eBay sales (a "Friends" boxset from overseas – it *is* legitimate; I bought them directly from an Australian retailer and outlined it very specifically in my auction listing). He claimed they were counterfeit. Wanted a refund. Wanted to keep the DVD’s also – he refused to send them back. He was a scammer claiming that I was a scammer. He filed a complaint with Paypal. I won. He filed a complaint with his credit card company. Paypal gave my account a -$350 and the rest is history. As to my story, I did pay my bank $400 in fees to settle my checking account which I no longer have because they promptly closed it (dumb). I did not pay Paypal’s collection agency, so I am pretty much unable to open new credit cards and such for, I guess, 7 years… I have been denied for credit since based on this. I do have Visa/Mastercard accounts, but I just tried to open a Sears account and was denied. This is the only negative record I have. I guess it’s a matter of principal or something not to pay the collection agency at this point. I suppose I should’ve/could’ve sued the buyer. I made a few mistakes along the way for sure but I was out the DVD’s ($350), the checking account fees ($400), and Paypal still claims I owe them $350. I also got my one and only negative feedback. I sent Paypal many letters asking why the buyer didn’t have to return the merchandise but they don’t really answer that question. They just point to the TOS. Called too. I’ve made enough in my eBay sales over the years that I still probably came out ahead overall, but not by much. For an individual, thats a pretty big hit to take.
Response:
You need to sue both paypal and the buyer. WHy are you letting them do this to you? Get thyself to a competent lawyer. Mention FCRA and FDCPA, specifically.
Isn’t it in the Paypal terms and conditions somewhere that you consent to let them do this to you? (Even if you don’t think about what might happen somewhere down the line.) Very impressive that you won with Paypal/eBay but I don’t understand how you were able to do so. Maybe you joined Paypal before they carefully worded their terms? Or do those laws you mentioned just override whatever Paypal says? I’ve also already paid my bank fees so I don’t know if there is much i could do. The only thing I haven’t paid is Paypal’s balance/collection agency. I was at least going to write a letter to refute the balance to the three credit agencies explaining why I was not paying (although I’ve heard that doesn’t really do much good).
Response:
According to my bank, PayPal can not take out funds without a Court Order. I would still be cautious. Just my .02 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I refuse to upgrade, but I am a nickel and dime seller. I’d get a bank account and keep a zero balance in it if you need to take PayPal. This is what happens then. Paypal attempts to take the money out of your checking account often (maybe even daily). Everytime they do, your bank charges a overdraft or no funds fee. If they get the $$$ that way, fine. If they do not, Paypal just hands your account over to a collection agency. If you do not pay, your credit report gets rather ruined. True story. Been there, done all of that. I shipped a buyer $350 worth of DVD’s from eBay sales (a "Friends" boxset from overseas – it *is* legitimate; I bought them directly from an Australian retailer and outlined it very specifically in my auction listing). He claimed they were counterfeit. Wanted a refund. Wanted to keep the DVD’s also – he refused to send them back. He was a scammer claiming that I was a scammer. He filed a complaint with Paypal. I won. He filed a complaint with his credit card company. Paypal gave my account a -$350 and the rest is history. As to my story, I did pay my bank $400 in fees to settle my checking account which I no longer have because they promptly closed it (dumb). I did not pay Paypal’s collection agency, so I am pretty much unable to open new credit cards and such for, I guess, 7 years… I have been denied for credit since based on this. I do have Visa/Mastercard accounts, but I just tried to open a Sears account and was denied. This is the only negative record I have. I guess it’s a matter of principal or something not to pay the collection agency at this point. I suppose I should’ve/could’ve sued the buyer. I made a few mistakes along the way for sure but I was out the DVD’s ($350), the checking account fees ($400), and Paypal still claims I owe them $350. I also got my one and only negative feedback. I sent Paypal many letters asking why the buyer didn’t have to return the merchandise but they don’t really answer that question. They just point to the TOS. Called too. I’ve made enough in my eBay sales over the years that I still probably came out ahead overall, but not by much. For an individual, thats a pretty big hit to take.
Response:
I’ve used them for 5 years with never any problems (until they got prudish about lingerie, but that’s a whole other thing! lol). I use my one and only bank account with them and have had 0 problems.
I think lacking fraud they are no problem.
Response:
I refuse to upgrade, but I am a nickel and dime seller. I’d get a bank account and keep a zero balance in it if you need to take PayPal.
This is what happens then. Paypal attempts to take the money out of your checking account often (maybe even daily). Everytime they do, your bank charges a overdraft or no funds fee. If they get the $$$ that way, fine. If they do not, Paypal just hands your account over to a collection agency. If you do not pay, your credit report gets rather ruined. True story. Been there, done all of that. I shipped a buyer $350 worth of DVD’s from eBay sales (a "Friends" boxset from overseas – it *is* legitimate; I bought them directly from an Australian retailer and outlined it very specifically in my auction listing). He claimed they were counterfeit. Wanted a refund. Wanted to keep the DVD’s also – he refused to send them back. He was a scammer claiming that I was a scammer. He filed a complaint with Paypal. I won. He filed a complaint with his credit card company. Paypal gave my account a -$350 and the rest is history. As to my story, I did pay my bank $400 in fees to settle my checking account which I no longer have because they promptly closed it (dumb). I did not pay Paypal’s collection agency, so I am pretty much unable to open new credit cards and such for, I guess, 7 years… I have been denied for credit since based on this. I do have Visa/Mastercard accounts, but I just tried to open a Sears account and was denied. This is the only negative record I have. I guess it’s a matter of principal or something not to pay the collection agency at this point. I suppose I should’ve/could’ve sued the buyer. I made a few mistakes along the way for sure but I was out the DVD’s ($350), the checking account fees ($400), and Paypal still claims I owe them $350. I also got my one and only negative feedback. I sent Paypal many letters asking why the buyer didn’t have to return the merchandise but they don’t really answer that question. They just point to the TOS. Called too. I’ve made enough in my eBay sales over the years that I still probably came out ahead overall, but not by much. For an individual, thats a pretty big hit to take.
Response:
they will not be out money from any problems resulting from your transactions. Their access to your bank account is the easiest way for them to ensure that’s so.
OK, I suppose I can give them access to a $0 bank account, buffered by a $100-200 floating Paypal balance. However has ANYONE here been screwed by Paypal? I’m actually surprised no one has stepped forward and said anything, so perhaps there is a better margin of safety than I thought. Arthur
Response:
they will not be out money from any problems resulting from your transactions. Their access to your bank account is the easiest way for them to ensure that’s so. OK, I suppose I can give them access to a $0 bank account, buffered by a $100-200 floating Paypal balance. However has ANYONE here been screwed by Paypal? I’m actually surprised no one has stepped forward and said anything, so perhaps there is a better margin of safety than I thought.
I’ve used them for 5 years with never any problems (until they got prudish about lingerie, but that’s a whole other thing! lol). I use my one and only bank account with them and have had 0 problems. Lori — Looking for sexy fashions in leather, pvc, shoes, accessories and more? Visit my online store at www.sensualelegance.com NOW WITH OVER 2500 ITEMS ONLINE AND MORE ADDED DAILY! And for adults only: www.sensual-desire.com
Response:
Do all you Paypal-savvy merchants think that my fears might be unfounded, or should I tell Paypal to hit the road? We do have a traditional merchant (Visa/MC) account, so hopefully giving Paypal the boot shouldn’t have much impact on our sales.
What about getting a secondary bank account linked to your business account? You have one of the account listed with payPal and you transfer your funds between them as you wish online. IF your bank have online services of course. Then you leave just enough to keep the PayPal listed account running with small sum of money on it at all times. When I lived in Norway I could do this with ease, but if any US banks link two business accounts together with only the business owner allowed to stick their fingers in the secondary, I don’t know. Might be worth looking into if you feel uncomfortable with how it is today. AND you can keep your PayPal account which is far more convenient for your potential buyers. Well, that was my brainstorming on the issue for now. Feel free to comment:-) — eBa(b)y
Response:
When someone does a chargeback through a credit card, they take money from PayPal. PayPal takes the money from the PayPal account holder.
If so, why can’t they just charge the credit card I gave them? Or at least do the courtesy of sending me a bill rather than grabbing money out of my bank account and screwing up my ledgers. Arthur
Response:
When someone does a chargeback through a credit card, they take money from PayPal. PayPal takes the money from the PayPal account holder. If so, why can’t they just charge the credit card I gave them?
I suspect for the same reason you’re in this hypothetical pickle–because such charges can be fairly easily contested. Or at least do the courtesy of sending me a bill rather than grabbing money out of my bank account and screwing up my ledgers.
Fraudulent sellers aren’t likely to pay a bill, though, and PayPal has no way of knowing the one kind from the other. Basically, their rule is that they will not be out money from any problems resulting from your transactions. Their access to your bank account is the easiest way for them to ensure that’s so. Deborah Stevenson
Response:
The statement below is not necessarily true. If you’re overdrawn by virtue of Paypal’s unauthorized electronic transfer, Paypal will have violated the EFTA (Electronic Fund Transfers Act). When EBlowme kicked me off in July, ‘02, there was a balance outstanding. IT tapped my account for $800 more than was there. I filed Reg E complaint with bank, which failed to act, other than to close my account and sic collection agency on me. I sued bank and collection agency and collected $6000. Thanks, eBlowme! IF paypal does this to you, sue them in your local circuit or federal court. ATtorney fees will be awarded when/if you win. Paypal gets sued enough, it will stop these illegal practices. Simple. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And of course, the bank isn’t going to let Paypal overdraw your "throwaway" bank account for FREE… they’ll hit the account with "NSF" fees. Paypal also will add an overdrawn fee to the amount you owe, making it worse than it started out. And if they resubmit the payment request to the bank, it all just keeps on snowballing. BobR
Response:
Stop taking paypal for a month and see if it effect you bottom line. If it does open a throw away checking account with $100 to link to the paypal account. Get the debit card and withdraw the balance or tranfer from your paypal bank account to a secured bank account.
This technique has been proposed before. BUt what happens if…..you keep only a few bucks in the PP account, you get a chargeback and there is not enough money to cover it. Ok, PP gets stuck…at first. But you have lots of auctions still running and people are gonna feed your PP account new money. As it comes in, PP gloms it and you are stuck anyway. Of course you could just close the account, advise your current bidders that PP is off and never mention it again in future auctions. But if you are gonna do that, do it on YOUR terms, when its convieninet for you, not when you are fighting a chargeback.
Response:
Some bank charge a maintenance fee if your balance falls below a certain level, usually $100. If there are no requirements then I would agree. Open it with $100 and then withdraw leaving $0. Then notify the bank in writing, notarized by them stating you revoke paypal’s authority to withdraw an money and will hold them liable for any unauthorized withdrawals.
Wouldnt that eventually cause PP to close the account? As soon as they try to grab new money, they will find they have been frozen out. They will then close out the guy, or at least inform him to reverse his order. If this method worked, everybody would just do it the first day they open the PP account. Has anyone done this and gotten away with it?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stop taking paypal for a month and see if it effect you bottom line. If it does open a throw away checking account with $100 to link to the paypal account. Get the debit card and withdraw the balance or tranfer from your paypal bank account to a secured bank account. This technique has been proposed before. BUt what happens if…..you keep only a few bucks in the PP account, you get a chargeback and there is not enough money to cover it. Ok, PP gets stuck…at first. But you have lots of auctions still running and people are gonna feed your PP account new money. As it comes in, PP gloms it and you are stuck anyway. Of course you could just close the account, advise your current bidders that PP is off and never mention it again in future auctions. But if you are gonna do that, do it on YOUR terms, when its convieninet for you, not when you are fighting a chargeback.
And of course, the bank isn’t going to let Paypal overdraw your "throwaway" bank account for FREE… they’ll hit the account with "NSF" fees. Paypal also will add an overdrawn fee to the amount you owe, making it worse than it started out. And if they resubmit the payment request to the bank, it all just keeps on snowballing. BobR
Response:
Stop taking paypal for a month and see if it effect you bottom line. If it does open a throw away checking account with $100 to link to the paypal account. Get the debit card and withdraw the balance or tranfer from your paypal bank account to a secured bank account.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paypal wants not only my credit card with which to accept payments, but now they want my bank account. When is enough enough? After hearing horror stories about Paypal making unauthorized bank withdrawals on paypalsucks.com and elsewhere, I deleted my traditional banking information from their system about 9 months ago. However I did leave credit card information online to make myself "Confirmed", since I know that my credit card company will go halfway up to bat for me, unlike bank policies. Nevertheless, my cousin works in the fraud department of Citibank in San Antonio and he says a large part of their workload is resolving unauthorized charges made by Paypal. However, well, golly gee, I get a payment notification today and Paypal is no longer bugging me to be "Verified". They’re now insisting on it: "You must be a Verified member to accept this payment. To accept this payment, please verify your account now. PayPal requires that accounts receiving payments from our PayPal Website Payments, Instant Purchase for Auctions, or Winning Buyer Notification features be Verified." [Get Verified] [Deny Payment] Gee, "Confirmed" is not good enough. Now I’ve got to be "Verified" so that my business account is available for Paypal to root around in as they wish. Do all you Paypal-savvy merchants think that my fears might be unfounded, or should I tell Paypal to hit the road? We do have a traditional merchant (Visa/MC) account, so hopefully giving Paypal the boot shouldn’t have much impact on our sales. Arthur
Response:
Paypal wants not only my credit card with which to accept payments, but now they want my bank account. When is enough enough? After hearing horror stories about Paypal making unauthorized bank withdrawals on paypalsucks.com and elsewhere, I deleted my traditional banking information from their system about 9 months ago. However I did leave credit card information online to make myself "Confirmed", since I know that my credit card company will go halfway up to bat for me, unlike bank policies. Nevertheless, my cousin works in the fraud department of Citibank in San Antonio and he says a large part of their workload is resolving unauthorized charges made by Paypal. However, well, golly gee, I get a payment notification today and Paypal is no longer bugging me to be "Verified". They’re now insisting on it: "You must be a Verified member to accept this payment. To accept this payment, please verify your account now. PayPal requires that accounts receiving payments from our PayPal Website Payments, Instant Purchase for Auctions, or Winning Buyer Notification features be Verified." [Get Verified] [Deny Payment] Gee, "Confirmed" is not good enough. Now I’ve got to be "Verified" so that my business account is available for Paypal to root around in as they wish. Do all you Paypal-savvy merchants think that my fears might be unfounded, or should I tell Paypal to hit the road? We do have a traditional merchant (Visa/MC) account, so hopefully giving Paypal the boot shouldn’t have much impact on our sales. Arthur
Response:
Paypal wants not only my credit card with which to accept payments, but now they want my bank account. When is enough enough? After hearing horror stories about Paypal making unauthorized bank withdrawals on paypalsucks.com and elsewhere,
You DO realize that one of the largest anti-PayPal sites is run by someone hoping to be a competitor? I deleted my traditional banking information from their system about 9 months ago. However I did leave credit card information online to make myself "Confirmed", since I know that my credit card company will go halfway up to bat for me, unlike bank policies. Nevertheless, my cousin works in the fraud department of Citibank in San Antonio and he says a large part of their workload is resolving unauthorized charges made by Paypal.
"Unauthorized" means "I authorized it by accepting the PayPal User Agreement, but maybe I didn’t read it first or understand what it meant?" When someone does a chargeback through a credit card, they take money from PayPal. PayPal takes the money from the PayPal account holder. I suppose PayPal users expect them to "eat" all the chargebacks, thus putting PayPal out of business due to people quickly realizing they can get their money back easily without recourse. If you have a merchant account, and you get a chargeback, the money will be deducted from you in the same manner as PayPal would take it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – However, well, golly gee, I get a payment notification today and Paypal is no longer bugging me to be "Verified". They’re now insisting on it: "You must be a Verified member to accept this payment. To accept this payment, please verify your account now. PayPal requires that accounts receiving payments from our PayPal Website Payments, Instant Purchase for Auctions, or Winning Buyer Notification features be Verified." [Get Verified] [Deny Payment] Gee, "Confirmed" is not good enough. Now I’ve got to be "Verified" so that my business account is available for Paypal to root around in as they wish. Do all you Paypal-savvy merchants think that my fears might be unfounded, or should I tell Paypal to hit the road? We do have a traditional merchant (Visa/MC) account, so hopefully giving Paypal the boot shouldn’t have much impact on our sales. Arthur
No one can guarantee you won’t get a chargeback through PayPal or your merchant account. It really doesn’t matter HOW you accept credit cards; your exposure is the same. If you have your own merchant account, use it and dump PayPal. The only caveat is that it will be less convenient for buyers. Kris
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paypal wants not only my credit card with which to accept payments, but now they want my bank account. When is enough enough? After hearing horror stories about Paypal making unauthorized bank withdrawals on paypalsucks.com and elsewhere, You DO realize that one of the largest anti-PayPal sites is run by someone hoping to be a competitor? I deleted my traditional banking information from their system about 9 months ago. However I did leave credit card information online to make myself "Confirmed", since I know that my credit card company will go halfway up to bat for me, unlike bank policies. Nevertheless, my cousin works in the fraud department of Citibank in San Antonio and he says a large part of their workload is resolving unauthorized charges made by Paypal. "Unauthorized" means "I authorized it by accepting the PayPal User Agreement, but maybe I didn’t read it first or understand what it meant?" When someone does a chargeback through a credit card, they take money from PayPal. PayPal takes the money from the PayPal account holder. I suppose PayPal users expect them to "eat" all the chargebacks, thus putting PayPal out of business due to people quickly realizing they can get their money back easily without recourse. If you have a merchant account, and you get a chargeback, the money will be deducted from you in the same manner as PayPal would take it. However, well, golly gee, I get a payment notification today and Paypal is no longer bugging me to be "Verified". They’re now insisting on it: "You must be a Verified member to accept this payment. To accept this payment, please verify your account now. PayPal requires that accounts receiving payments from our PayPal Website Payments, Instant Purchase for Auctions, or Winning Buyer Notification features be Verified." [Get Verified] [Deny Payment] Gee, "Confirmed" is not good enough. Now I’ve got to be "Verified" so that my business account is available for Paypal to root around in as they wish. Do all you Paypal-savvy merchants think that my fears might be unfounded, or should I tell Paypal to hit the road? We do have a traditional merchant (Visa/MC) account, so hopefully giving Paypal the boot shouldn’t have much impact on our sales. Arthur No one can guarantee you won’t get a chargeback through PayPal or your merchant account. It really doesn’t matter HOW you accept credit cards; your exposure is the same. If you have your own merchant account, use it and dump PayPal. The only caveat is that it will be less convenient for buyers. Kris
Yeah, but tell him the rest: If you are arguing a chargeback with a credit card provider, you can contest it, you can even deny it. I’ve been thru this with really crooked merchants and its like pulling nails these days to get a credit card to charge anything back. Even with good written documentation, its a long fight and half the time the credit card people tell you they are giving you the money out of their own pocket, just to keep you as a customer. With PP, there is no recourse, the seller is stuck, no use complaining, no avenue of appeal. The seller loses the money and has to chalk it up to "cost of doing business", something no real merchant would do. Dump PP. Unless you are a real big dealer, you dont need them, you dont need credit cards. If you ARE a big dealer, get a real merchant account so you look like a big dealer.
Response:
Some bank charge a maintenance fee if your balance falls below a certain level, usually $100. If there are no requirements then I would agree. Open it with $100 and then withdraw leaving $0. Then notify the bank in writing, notarized by them stating you revoke paypal’s authority to withdraw an money and will hold them liable for any unauthorized withdrawals.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I refuse to upgrade, but I am a nickel and dime seller. I’d get a bank account and keep a zero balance in it if you need to take PayPal. A — Paypal wants not only my credit card with which to accept payments, but now they want my bank account. When is enough enough? After hearing horror stories about Paypal making unauthorized bank withdrawals on paypalsucks.com and elsewhere, I deleted my traditional banking information from their system about 9 months ago. However I did leave credit card information online to make myself "Confirmed", since I know that my credit card company will go halfway up to bat for me, unlike bank policies. Nevertheless, my cousin works in the fraud department of Citibank in San Antonio and he says a large part of their workload is resolving unauthorized charges made by Paypal. However, well, golly gee, I get a payment notification today and Paypal is no longer bugging me to be "Verified". They’re now insisting on it: "You must be a Verified member to accept this payment. To accept this payment, please verify your account now. PayPal requires that accounts receiving payments from our PayPal Website Payments, Instant Purchase for Auctions, or Winning Buyer Notification features be Verified." [Get Verified] [Deny Payment] Gee, "Confirmed" is not good enough. Now I’ve got to be "Verified" so that my business account is available for Paypal to root around in as they wish. Do all you Paypal-savvy merchants think that my fears might be unfounded, or should I tell Paypal to hit the road? We do have a traditional merchant (Visa/MC) account, so hopefully giving Paypal the boot shouldn’t have much impact on our sales. Arthur
Response:
I refuse to upgrade, but I am a nickel and dime seller. I’d get a bank account and keep a zero balance in it if you need to take PayPal. A —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Paypal wants not only my credit card with which to accept payments, but now they want my bank account. When is enough enough? After hearing horror stories about Paypal making unauthorized bank withdrawals on paypalsucks.com and elsewhere, I deleted my traditional banking information from their system about 9 months ago. However I did leave credit card information online to make myself "Confirmed", since I know that my credit card company will go halfway up to bat for me, unlike bank policies. Nevertheless, my cousin works in the fraud department of Citibank in San Antonio and he says a large part of their workload is resolving unauthorized charges made by Paypal. However, well, golly gee, I get a payment notification today and Paypal is no longer bugging me to be "Verified". They’re now insisting on it: "You must be a Verified member to accept this payment. To accept this payment, please verify your account now. PayPal requires that accounts receiving payments from our PayPal Website Payments, Instant Purchase for Auctions, or Winning Buyer Notification features be Verified." [Get Verified] [Deny Payment] Gee, "Confirmed" is not good enough. Now I’ve got to be "Verified" so that my business account is available for Paypal to root around in as they wish. Do all you Paypal-savvy merchants think that my fears might be unfounded, or should I tell Paypal to hit the road? We do have a traditional merchant (Visa/MC) account, so hopefully giving Paypal the boot shouldn’t have much impact on our sales. Arthur
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