Question:
It might stop one form of abuse, but it assists another, namely shill bidding. If the buyers can’t see the ID’s of other bidders, they have no way to check other auctions of the seller for signs of shilling (bidding up your own auction to raise the prices). This is generally regarded as a far more serious problem on eBay than spamming, so I don’t see your spam solution getting anywhere. Although the transaction would have been outside of eBay, the seller who spammed you is breaking eBay’s rules in sending the original email, and you can file a complaint against them for that infraction if you wish with safeharbor. As long as they have an eBay ID tied to the email address it’s a simple matter to make the connection. Richard Ward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – greetings, Recreantly I participated in an auction where I was out bid for an item. Shortly after the auction had ended the "gold star" rated seller approached me to sell a duplicate item for the price of the winning bid. Looking at the Ebay’s message boards I have learned that this is not only against the rules [It is considered spamming and fee avoidance] but some people are getting seriously ripped off by paying for items that never come. Because these sales are happening through improper channels, "Outside the realm of Ebay". Ebay does nothing. If the legitimate sale concludes properly, the sellers even maintains or improves their star rating. Also . . . Some pseudo-sellers are contacting bidders, offering prices for items that are less than what the bidder has bid with legitimate sellers. While Ebay is officially against both of these practices they have basically throws their hands in the air. If Ebay were truly serious about remedying these problems, here is what they could do, Currently I can get the email address of the seller [and that is a good thing] but I can also get the email address of any other user by requesting it through their user name. My suggestion is to: On the seller’s page, eliminate the (view bid history) section entirely. Why does a bidder need to know who else is bidding? Have the seller post their email address as part of the auction page. Then only make email address available to the lead bidder and seller by way of the "end of the auction notice" and no one else. At least restrict the email request to sellers finding the winning bidder ONLY. If the high bidder refuses to pay, either make it easier for the seller to switch to the next highest bidder after so many days, or the seller gets a free re-listing for another auction of that same item. PJB
Response:
WRONG! eBay’s definition, from the Miscellaneous offenses section of the listing policy: "Sending spam – Sending unsolicited, commercial email including past unwanted email to bidders." You can find this policy at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/investigates.html#misc The penalty for this activity is described as follows: "Disciplinary action may range from a formal warning, up to indefinite suspension of a user’s account." You may not consider it spam or abuse, but eBay does, and although there may be ways to try to avoid getting caught, it doesn’t make the activity itself any more acceptable. Richard Ward – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although the transaction would have been outside of eBay, the seller who spammed you is breaking eBay’s rules in sending the original email, and you can file a complaint against them for that infraction if you wish with safeharbor. As long as they have an eBay ID tied to the email address it’s a simple matter to make the connection. Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely. Further, even with safeharbor, there’s nothing that can be done about it. Consider: "Your e-mail address was forwarded to me as someone who has recently bid on X." Now prove that the seller got your e-mail address from EBay; you can’t. It only takes one additional EBay ID or one intervening person or agent. I’ve never had someone offer me an item in this way, but frankly I wish someone would. I save money, she saves money, everyone wins. Sure, nobody gets the advantages of selling through EBay (insurance, feedback, etc.), but in the last twelve years I’ve sold much, much more stuff through the newsgroups than through EBay, so for me this is a non-issue. I have mailed people offering to sell in this manner, and in most cases the buyers have been ecstatic, jumping on the opportunity. This, IMHO, is not abuse. It’s good sense all around. ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
Response:
I don’t care what anybody says, I consider any email or newsgroup posting that tries to sell me something as "Spam". I thought this was interesting…."Most Americans intuitively, viscerally associate "Spam" with "no nutritive or aesthetic value," though it is still relatively popular (especially in Hawaii) ". Elke, is that true? Rhonda
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You make the absolutely false assumption that people will use e-mail accounts that are attached to their EBay userid. I specifically mail from my Freenet or Deja accounts, neither of which are attached to an EBay ID, and both of which have my real name attached. So you are essentially using these accounts as shills. That’s actually a form of fraud. If Freenet and Deja are notified, they’ll close your accounts. They’re not shills; they’re email addresses. I don’t bid with them. (Duh!) They’re certainly not going to close my accounts…I have more than two dozen e-mail accounts (several on Deja, several try-before-you-buy Freedom.net account, and so on, and so on).
Shill is not wholly an auction term. A shill is any form of alternative identification used to make your actions more difficult to track. If used with illegal intent… – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth <http://hamsterdance.com/ – My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely.
Response:
This is very true. After upscayle ripped me off, and after I realized that Carol Manser=upscayle=mackenzyfrenzy=lizardlounge=(maybe)bassman53, I will avoid anything that is being sold by or bided on any of the above ids. Hiding the bidding history will only helps shills/crocks/scams. Although it is still a crap shot.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My suggestion is to: On the seller’s page, eliminate the (view bid history) section entirely. Why does a bidder need to know who else is bidding? Because Ebay is also full of crooks who shill auctions.
Response:
I don’t care what anybody says, I consider any email or newsgroup posting that tries to sell me something as "Spam".
And you can call your keyboard a refrigerator if you like, but you’ll have trouble communicating with the rest of the world. ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
Response:
ANONYMOUSLY? Listen up: honesty is in the PERSON or COMPANY, not their presence inside Ebay. If they’re crooks, they’re crooks everywhere. It is not safer inside Ebay than outside of it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Count me in the minority i HAVE bought again from people with whom I’ve had succesful ebay auctions I would NOT buy from someone offering a lower price on something I was out bid on just because they offered it anonymously. It’s entirely acceptable, for the simple reason that most people *want* to get such offers by mail. When I lose out on an auction, I’m more than happy to get an offer to buy it even cheaper. If you’re not, then you’re in the minority.
Response:
My suggestion is to: On the seller’s page, eliminate the (view bid history) section entirely. Why does a bidder need to know who else is bidding?
Because Ebay is also full of crooks who shill auctions.
Response:
Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is …[snipped]
Ebay defines spam eccentrically. Remember, this company once told sellers to go out and spam newsgroups as sales gimmicks to lure folks into Ebay! Ebay poobahs are not necessarily Net savvy.
Response:
So you are essentially using these accounts as shills. That’s actually a form of fraud. If Freenet and Deja are notified, they’ll close your accounts. They’re not shills; they’re email addresses.
I wondered if you were even going to give this guy one minute. You are very patient.
Response:
WRONG! eBay’s definition, from the Miscellaneous offenses section of the listing policy: "Sending spam – Sending unsolicited, commercial email including past unwanted email to bidders."
It is EBAY that is wrong. Ebay defines spam from a perspective of crass self-interest and high ignorance of Net culture. Ebay wants to own your customers. They’re willing to lend them to you for a bit, as long as you don’t really get enough realtionship going with them to take them with you if you go somewhere else. Defining all contact with YOUR CUSTOMERS as spam unless it takes place inside their corral is one way to own your space without paying rent.
Response:
Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely. UCE *is* Spam.
No; Spam is UCE; not all UCE is spam. Hit me with some from your home.com account so I can forward it to the abuse handlers at home.com. They take UCE *very* seriously. And if you do it a few times, they’ll terminate your cable internet service pretty damned quick.
I would be foolish to do anything with any possibility of jeopardizing my @home account. Should I take this as an invitation to mail you from any of my other accounts? ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
Response:
You make the absolutely false assumption that people will use e-mail accounts that are attached to their EBay userid. I specifically mail from my Freenet or Deja accounts, neither of which are attached to an EBay ID, and both of which have my real name attached. So you are essentially using these accounts as shills. That’s actually a form of fraud. If Freenet and Deja are notified, they’ll close your accounts.
They’re not shills; they’re email addresses. I don’t bid with them. (Duh!) They’re certainly not going to close my accounts…I have more than two dozen Victoria Freenet account, my try-before-you-buy Freedom.net account, and so on, and so on). There’s nothing dishonest about having multiple e-mail addresses; I can’t imagine why you would think so. Glad you think eBay is too stupid to look up names and addresses when a complaint is filed.
I think it’s been adequately explained in this newsgroup enough times that EBay is pretty stupid. You may not consider it spam or abuse, but eBay does, and although there may be ways to try to avoid getting caught, it doesn’t make the activity itself any more acceptable. It’s entirely acceptable, for the simple reason that most people *want* to get such offers by mail. When I lose out on an auction, I’m more than happy to get an offer to buy it even cheaper. If you’re not, then you’re in the minority. When I receive an offer for an item for which I was outbid, I either ask the person to initiate an auction for me to bid upon. Or I forward the email to their ISP as a spam complaint AND I forward the eamil to eBay so they may investigate.
My userid on EBay is "scowling." Please don’t bid on anything I sell. Please cancel any bids I may accidentally make on your stuff. You’re about the last person I’d ever want to deal with. Thanks. eBay will be viable only as long as we make it so. Pulling off-eBay stunts does nothing but hurt us all. It is, IMO, morally inexcusable. People that do this should be whapped upside the head and face criminal charges for ripping eBay off.
So long as EBay makes its users’ personal information available to any anonymous person who requests it, they are implictly permitting it. No court in the land would convict someone of "ripping EBay off" for offering someone an item for sale. Hey, if I sell something on Yahoo to someone who has an EBay account, is that ripping EBay off? Gimme a break. ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
Response:
Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely. Well Sir …. I’ve never heard it put like that. Where did ya get the above definition from? I’d like to see that page.
http://www.whatis.com/spam.htm http://www.cybernothing.org/faqs/net-abuse-faq.html#2.1 http://www.jargonfile.org/jargon/html/entry/spam.html How ’bout that? Any other questions, new guy? ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
Response:
Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely. Find a major ISP that defines spam as strictly mass email
@Home, for one right off the top of my head. ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
Response:
Although the transaction would have been outside of eBay, the seller who spammed you is breaking eBay’s rules in sending the original email, and you can file a complaint against them for that infraction if you wish with safeharbor. As long as they have an eBay ID tied to the email address it’s a simple matter to make the connection. Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely.
UCE *is* Spam. Hit me with some from your home.com account so I can forward it to the abuse handlers at home.com. They take UCE *very* seriously. And if you do it a few times, they’ll terminate your cable internet service pretty damned quick. – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth <http://hamsterdance.com/ – My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely.
Response:
You make the absolutely false assumption that people will use e-mail accounts that are attached to their EBay userid. I specifically mail from my Freenet or Deja accounts, neither of which are attached to an EBay ID, and both of which have my real name attached.
So you are essentially using these accounts as shills. That’s actually a form of fraud. If Freenet and Deja are notified, they’ll close your accounts. Glad you think eBay is too stupid to look up names and addresses when a complaint is filed. You may not consider it spam or abuse, but eBay does, and although there may be ways to try to avoid getting caught, it doesn’t make the activity itself any more acceptable. It’s entirely acceptable, for the simple reason that most people *want* to get such offers by mail. When I lose out on an auction, I’m more than happy to get an offer to buy it even cheaper. If you’re not, then you’re in the minority.
When I receive an offer for an item for which I was outbid, I either ask the person to initiate an auction for me to bid upon. Or I forward the email to their ISP as a spam complaint AND I forward the eamil to eBay so they may investigate. eBay will be viable only as long as we make it so. Pulling off-eBay stunts does nothing but hurt us all. It is, IMO, morally inexcusable. People that do this should be whapped upside the head and face criminal charges for ripping eBay off. – Dan. — – South Jersey, USA, Earth <http://hamsterdance.com/ – My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely.
Response:
Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely.
Well Sir …. I’ve never heard it put like that. Where did ya get the above definition from? I’d like to see that page. By that logic people who strip email address from news groups and offer deals to "HELP SOLVE YOUR MONEY PROBLEMS FAST" to people that they don’t know. As long as they email this crap one email at a time, aren’t spamming either. …… Ummmm NO. IMHO – That’s spam too. No matter how you cut it. And going by an Ebay page. Offering an item to the second highest bidder IS considered spam because it is an avoidance of Ebay’s fees. [Not a verbatim quote]
Response:
I am rather confused by this paragraph, but I’ll tackle it one bit at a time… The seller’s email address is already available on the auction page, so as far as I can see, your first sentence is not advocating any change at all. This is necessary, because potential bidders have to be able to contact the seller with questions about the merchandise.
I wasn’t looking at any seller’s page when I wrote my first post. I was thinking that you had to make a request for the seller’s email. I know that I am sometimes unclear in email type of messages. You people have let me know where I am unclear [Specially MR M.C. Ortin] and what other potential mischief could arise if my ideas were implemented. I agree that shill bidding is FAR a worse problem. Regarding the matters that I was talking about, a buyer has the choice of accepting the offer or not. Regarding shill bidding, the buyer ALWAYS loses. Being that I have made only 2 purchases in the last year, I think that I’ll wait to see what you power Ebayers come up with :-) Thanks
Response:
Count me in the minority i HAVE bought again from people with whom I’ve had succesful ebay auctions I would NOT buy from someone offering a lower price on something I was out bid on just because they offered it anonymously.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It’s entirely acceptable, for the simple reason that most people *want* to get such offers by mail. When I lose out on an auction, I’m more than happy to get an offer to buy it even cheaper. If you’re not, then you’re in the minority.
Response:
Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely.
Find a major ISP that defines spam as strictly mass email Mindspring http://help.mindspring.com/docs/004/spaminator/spaminator.php3 Spam is unsolicited commercial e-mail or unsolicited broadcast e-mail,
Response:
WRONG!
No, not wrong. See below. eBay’s definition, from the Miscellaneous offenses section of the listing policy: "Sending spam – Sending unsolicited, commercial email including past unwanted email to bidders." You can find this policy at: http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/investigates.html#misc The penalty for this activity is described as follows: "Disciplinary action may range from a formal warning, up to indefinite suspension of a user’s account."
You make the absolutely false assumption that people will use e-mail accounts that are attached to their EBay userid. I specifically mail from my Freenet or Deja accounts, neither of which are attached to an EBay ID, and both of which have my real name attached. You may not consider it spam or abuse, but eBay does, and although there may be ways to try to avoid getting caught, it doesn’t make the activity itself any more acceptable.
It’s entirely acceptable, for the simple reason that most people *want* to get such offers by mail. When I lose out on an auction, I’m more than happy to get an offer to buy it even cheaper. If you’re not, then you’re in the minority. ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
Response:
greetings, Recreantly I participated in an auction where I was out bid for an item. Shortly after the auction had ended the "gold star" rated seller approached me to sell a duplicate item for the price of the winning bid. Looking at the Ebay’s message boards I have learned that this is not only against the rules [It is considered spamming and fee avoidance] but some people are getting seriously ripped off by paying for items that never come.
True. Did you report the incident to SafeHarbor? Because these sales are happening through improper channels, "Outside the realm of Ebay". Ebay does nothing.
eBay does nothing if nobody complains. But if you report the problem, they will take steps to see that it is not repeated. I have had a user (with multiple 100’s of feedback) suspended for spamming me repeatedly. If the legitimate sale concludes properly, the sellers even maintains or improves their star rating.
Not any more. Since eBay instituted transactional feedback, any under-the-table sales will not have any effect on the seller’s rating. (In either direction.) Also . . . Some pseudo-sellers are contacting bidders, offering prices for items that are less than what the bidder has bid with legitimate sellers. While Ebay is officially against both of these practices they have basically throws their hands in the air.
If the perpetrator is using an address registered on eBay, eBay will take action. The only time they throw up their hands is if the perpetrator is just not registered on eBay at all. And yes, this does happen. But not all the time. If Ebay were truly serious about remedying these problems, here is what they could do, Currently I can get the email address of the seller [and that is a good thing] but I can also get the email address of any other user by requesting it through their user name. My suggestion is to: On the seller’s page, eliminate the (view bid history) section entirely. Why does a bidder need to know who else is bidding?
To discover shill bidding. eBay doesn’t have the resources to look for this kind of abuse; it’s up to us users to spot the frauds and report them. Without the bid history, we can’t spot them. Have the seller post their email address as part of the auction page. Then only make email address available to the lead bidder and seller by way of the "end of the auction notice" and no one else. At least restrict the email request to sellers finding the winning bidder ONLY.
I am rather confused by this paragraph, but I’ll tackle it one bit at a time… The seller’s email address is already available on the auction page, so as far as I can see, your first sentence is not advocating any change at all. This is necessary, because potential bidders have to be able to contact the seller with questions about the merchandise. In your second sentence, you don’t specify *whose* email address should not be made available. I assume you mean the buyer’s. There may be some merit in this, but I’d like to hear why you think it would help. I’ll also point out that eBay’s "end of auction" notices are not exactly timely, and even if they were, a seller might have technical problems which caused the notice to get lost. Regarding your third recommendation, to give the buyer only the address of the high bidder, there is a bit of a problem here. eBay has, for some time, suggested that if a seller is not able to complete a transaction with the highest bidder, he try to sell it to the second-highest. Without going into whether this is a good idea or not, I’ll just say that this would be impossible without the seller getting the second-highest bidder’s email address. Besides, one of the basic tenets of eBay is that a user who’s registered with eBay can trust other registered users, so it’s OK to give your email address to them. Any eBay user who violates this trust should be reported to SafeHarbor. -Mark- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If the high bidder refuses to pay, either make it easier for the seller to switch to the next highest bidder after so many days, or the seller gets a free re-listing for another auction of that same item. PJB
Response:
greetings, Recreantly I participated in an auction where I was out bid for an item. Shortly after the auction had ended the "gold star" rated seller approached me to sell a duplicate item for the price of the winning bid. Looking at the Ebay’s message boards I have learned that this is not only against the rules [It is considered spamming and fee avoidance] but some people are getting seriously ripped off by paying for items that never come. Because these sales are happening through improper channels, "Outside the realm of Ebay". Ebay does nothing. If the legitimate sale concludes properly, the sellers even maintains or improves their star rating. Also . . . Some pseudo-sellers are contacting bidders, offering prices for items that are less than what the bidder has bid with legitimate sellers. While Ebay is officially against both of these practices they have basically throws their hands in the air. If Ebay were truly serious about remedying these problems, here is what they could do, Currently I can get the email address of the seller [and that is a good thing] but I can also get the email address of any other user by requesting it through their user name. My suggestion is to: On the seller’s page, eliminate the (view bid history) section entirely. Why does a bidder need to know who else is bidding? Have the seller post their email address as part of the auction page. Then only make email address available to the lead bidder and seller by way of the "end of the auction notice" and no one else. At least restrict the email request to sellers finding the winning bidder ONLY. If the high bidder refuses to pay, either make it easier for the seller to switch to the next highest bidder after so many days, or the seller gets a free re-listing for another auction of that same item. PJB
Response:
Although the transaction would have been outside of eBay, the seller who spammed you is breaking eBay’s rules in sending the original email, and you can file a complaint against them for that infraction if you wish with safeharbor. As long as they have an eBay ID tied to the email address it’s a simple matter to make the connection.
Well, first off, it’s not spam. Spam is *massmail*. Sending an offer to one user is "unsolicited commercial e-mail", which is something else entirely. Further, even with safeharbor, there’s nothing that can be done about it. Consider: "Your e-mail address was forwarded to me as someone who has recently bid on X." Now prove that the seller got your e-mail address from EBay; you can’t. It only takes one additional EBay ID or one intervening person or agent. I’ve never had someone offer me an item in this way, but frankly I wish someone would. I save money, she saves money, everyone wins. Sure, nobody gets the advantages of selling through EBay (insurance, feedback, etc.), but in the last twelve years I’ve sold much, much more stuff through the newsgroups than through EBay, so for me this is a non-issue. I have mailed people offering to sell in this manner, and in most cases the buyers have been ecstatic, jumping on the opportunity. This, IMHO, is not abuse. It’s good sense all around. ——- Jim Cowling — Writer/Atheist/Geek — a.a. # 647 Nobody reads Usenet to have their mind changed, and nobody should post to Usenet hoping to change someone’s mind. ——-
If you like this post and would like to receive updates from this blog, please subscribe our feed.